Minnesota Timberwolves roundtable: Kyrie Irving talk

Dunking With Wolves staff participate in a Minnesota Timberwolves roundtable with Bleacher Report writer Dan Favale to discuss Kyrie Irving.

1. What’s a realistic trade package for Kyrie Irving?

Dan Favale via Bleacher Report (@danfavale): The Timberwolves are in such a tough spot. They have a great start to any Kyrie Irving trade, with Andrew Wiggins, but they don’t have the assets necessary to sweeten the pot for the Cavaliers or a third team. Cleveland won’t be interested in Minnesota’s 2020 first-round pick when it’s trying to maximize LeBron James’ window, and that draft choice alone probably isn’t enough on its own to coax another piece from a facilitating squad. The Wolves can dangle a more enticing package once Jeff Teague is eligible to be traded, but that’s not until December, and there’s little to no chance the Cavaliers go into next season with this situation hanging over their heads.

With all this in mind, this one deal in particular is probably the best Minnesota can hope to concoct:

Cleveland Cavaliers Receive: PG Eric Bledsoe, SF/PF Jared Dudley SG Andrew Wiggins

Minnesota Timberwolves Receive: PG Kyrie Irving

Phoenix Suns Receive: C Cole Aldrich, PF Nemanja Bjelica, SG Iman Shumpert, unprotected 2020 first-round pick (via Minnesota), top-three protected 2022 first-round pick (via Minnesota).

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Even this feels like a stretch. The Phoenix Suns should absolutely consider picking up two loosely protected future firsts if they’re intent on rebuilding. Then again, they’re so far off in the distance, and Minnesota has to first convey its 2018 choice (lottery protected) to the Atlanta Hawks for all this to properly align.

Trading these two picks stings, but it’s the Timberwolves’ only real option. They aren’t getting Irving for only Wiggins and a first, and they need to make it worthwhile for the Suns to absorb nothing other than cap dreck. Things get a little simpler if the Cavaliers don’t insist on swapping out Iman Shumpert for Jared Dudley, but not by much. The Timberwolves still must come to grips with forking over two more firsts, while the Suns have to accept hedging against Minnesota’s future as adequate compensation for their best player.

Alas, this is what the Timberwolves are up against in any Irving deal. Future picks are their best asset outside Wiggins if they’re trying to broker a deal for December.

Max Neuhaus (MaX_nEuHaUs): There have been so many trade scenarios thrown out all across social media it could make your head spin. Three team deals, deals that include Andrew Wiggins, and deals that don’t involve Wiggins. Taking a look at what could actually happen though, there are a few trades that make sense and one that stands out in my mind. The Timberwolves send the former number one overall pick Wiggins and Gorgui Dieng to Cleveland in exchange for Kyrie Irving. While this trade would make sense for both sides, Cavaliers Owner Dan Gilbert might want more considering he turned down a Paul George for Irving deal earlier in the offseason.

The Wolves deal of Wiggins and Dieng would make sense for both Minnesota and Cleveland. The Timberwolves get a superstar and a top five point guard. In return, the Cavaliers get two players that can help them both now and in the future. Plus, even if LeBron James does end up leaving after this year, him working with the former Kansas product can only help speed up his development. For reference, it would be like when Karl-Anthony Towns had Kevin Garnett to work with.

On the Wolves front, this deal makes sense. While the upside of Wiggins is sky-high, there is no promise that he fulfills it. He could just be a good scorer on a bad team. Meanwhile, the other former number one overall pick in the deal has shown his ability to be an elite player in the NBA. Today’s NBA has shown that, in order to win big, you need to have a roster that has superstars leading it. A big three of Towns, Jimmy Butler and Irving shows that Minnesota means business.  

Dieng is not a throwaway piece in this trade either. He averaged 10 points and more than a block a game last season. No matter if he starts or if he is one of the first guys off the bench, the 2013 NCAA national champion can produce.

This deal might take a pick or two from the Timberwolves to get the green light from Gilbert. As is, though, this would be a fair trade for both side and they both get something they want.

Ethan Lillard (@JPSports217): Kyrie Irving is one of the best point guards in the NBA. When he hit the basketball world with a seemingly out of nowhere trade request, every organization immediately looked at what they had to offer and thought, ‘Is this enough?’

With the way trades and transactions have taken place this off-season, it’s not hard to imagine the Cavs selling their star point guard, and future of the organization, to the highest bidder. So far, it appears the Knicks, Suns and Timberwolves are front runners to land the coveted guard. All three teams realize with this one trade, the face of their entire franchise can change. Looking

Looking over the possible return from teams in the Irving sweepstakes, it appears Minnesota has the leg up on the others. The Timberwolves young core has been a hot topic of discussion the past two seasons, with some already claiming the Wolves are the next Golden State Warriors.

One of the biggest assets in Minnesota is youth, but that’s exactly what they will have to trade in return for Irving. Yes, Irving also provides youth and has already proved himself, but to acquire him, more than one piece of the young nucleus will need to be shipped to Cleveland. It’s all but certain at this point, according to nearly every report, that the Timberwolves will have to part ways with Andrew Wiggins to make this trade happen. Wiggins for Irving straight up doesn’t work out due to the fact Wiggins is currently on his rookie deal, although Minnesota is looking into re-signing him when they make up their minds if they want to trade him or not.

Looking over ESPN’s Trade Machine, plugging in Wiggins, Cole Aldrich and Tyus Jones makes the deal for Irving work. Other than that, the Timberwolves currently don’t have many other options in terms of players to trade. Other than the three aforementioned names, the only other players that can currently be traded are Nemanja Bjelica, Karl-Anthony Towns, Jimmy Butler and Gorgui Dieng. Dieng and Bjelica could be moved, but KAT and Butler are untouchable pieces.

Another trade, if the first trade mentioned doesn’t do it for the Cavaliers, would be Wiggins and Dieng for Irving, with the possibility of Jones being thrown in if the Cavs so wish. There are other possibilities, but those seem to be the two that are most logical.

2. Who has the higher ceiling- Andrew Wiggins or Kyrie Irving?

Dan: Andrew Wiggins has the higher ceiling. He will probably never be the scorer that Irving is, but he’s only 22. He has plenty of time to round out the rest of his game, where even a better version of Irving will basically be a souped-up scorer and, maybe, an above-average passer.

Defensive tools ultimately make the difference. At 6 feet 8 inches, Wiggins has the size and mobility to guard three different positions. He’s often clueless on that end. He’s been okay at times in one-on-one situations, but asking him to defend pick-and-roll ball-handlers and post-up sets is like pulling teeth. His propensity to lose track of orbiting shooters off the rock is also, shall we say, less than ideal.

Still, it’s easier to envision a scenario in which he becomes a plus defender. His athleticism and explosion off the bounce make it possible. And when you factor in his improved shooting—he canned more than 40.5 percent of his spot-up threes last year, which is a big deal—there’s at least a semi-discernible path to him becoming a two-player who can compliment anyone he’s running alongside.

That’s just not going to happen for Irving, no matter how much he improves on the offensive end. He’s a good size (6-foot-3) at point guard, but his pick-and-roll and off-ball defense are worse than Wiggins’ at the moment.

When dealing with two talented but imperfect players, you roll with the younger one’s ceiling, in hopes he’ll have more time to iron out his wrinkles. And when that player, again, just so happens to have the physical tools to fill out the most glaring gaps in his game, the decision is a no-brainer.

Max: For me, this is a loaded question. To start, I will say that Wiggins has the higher ceiling. A big part of that is because we have seen much more from Irving than we have of the current third option for Minnesota.

The man from Duke has been to three straight NBA finals and won one. He is also a four-time All-Star, was named to the 2014-15 All-NBA team, and won gold in Brazil with team USA. He is one of the best finishers at the rim in the NBA and he can score from anywhere. He has shown the ability to take and make big shots, most famously the step back three he hit to seal the victory for Cleveland in game seven of the Finals two years ago. Irving is an elite NBA player and you know what you are getting when you get him on your team.

The same can’t be said for Wiggins. He has shown the ability to put the ball in the basket, that’s for sure. He has increased his scoring average every year by at least two points a game over his three-year career. Almost every other part of his game has left much to be desired. The former Jayhawk’s individual defensive ranking was among the worst in the NBA, ranking him with the likes of Nick Young of Golden State and former Wolf Shabazz Muhammad. On the offensive side of the ball, Wiggins does little more than score. He has only averaged two assists and four rebounds a game for his career.

While Wiggins is not at the level of an Irving yet, there is no reason to think he can’t make it there. With his age, length, and athleticism, anything is possible. With his scoring average increasing every season, we know he has the ability to grow his game leaps and bounds. Plus, with Butler coming into town, he can learn tons about being a playmaker and a defensive stopper. The sky’s the limit for the former rookie of the year, he just has to reach out and grab it.

Ethan: When it comes to trading Wiggins for Irving, the only question is: Just how good can Andrew Wiggins be? Many believe we have more than likely seen the best Irving has to offer, which is premier point guard skills, some of the best handles in recent memory, the ability to shoot from three, arguably the best finishing under the hoop skills in the league and not to mention the clutch gene that is something unteachable and unreachable for some.

Wiggins has shown he can be clutch at times, but Minnesota never found themselves in many situations where he could put that ability on display.  Both have glaring holes in their defensive game, but Wiggins can do nearly everything Irving can, minus running the point, which isn’t his job. Wiggins can shoot anywhere on the court and has steadily made improvements from behind the arch. He also has the ability to rise up over defenders at the rim and make opponents pay for giving him a glimpse at the paint.

Irving just turned 25 and has been in the league for six years, while Wiggins is still 22 and has been in the league half as long. Now with a full season with Tom Thibodeau at the helm and being put alongside arguably the best two-way player in the league in Jimmy Butler, Wiggins has the chance to unlock his potential on the defensive end and become a player mentioned in the same breath as Butler, Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.

It seems like insurmountable odds are stacked against the former Jayhawk with the additions undoubtedly taking away some of his looks on the offensive end, but now is Wiggins’ time to shine. All it takes is one season and the Wolves could have two of the best wing players in the league at their disposal.

3. Would you trade Wiggins (straight up) for Kyrie?

Dan: If I’m the Wolves, I would not. I get the intrigue, especially after trading for Jimmy Butler and with Wiggins coming up on a mega extension, but there’s no guarantee Irving stays with you after two years. Given that you have this same problem with Butler, it seems smarter to soldier on with a player you can have under team control for at least the next half-decade.

Plus, the Wolves’ defense wasn’t great last season. There were protracted stretches of brilliance, anchored in large part by Karl-Anthony Towns’ flashes and ultra-underrated Gorgui Dieng. But they still finished 26th in points allowed per 100 possessions—and 28th after the All-Star break.

Dealing away Kris Dunn and Ricky Rubio is fine when you’ve added Butler. But introducing Irving into the fold is like having another Zach LaVine. And when his arrival comes at the expense of someone, in Wiggins, who you’re hoping grows into a top-notch stopper, it’s too much of a risk.

Tom Thibodeau is not a miracle-worker. That much became clear last season. And with all the other baggage attached to Irving, his defensive limitations—particularly in a backcourt that may also include Teague—should be the factor that tilts the Timberwolves toward standing pat.

Max: Yes. While the possibility of Wiggins is very, very tough to pass on, making this deal would be best for the Wolves.

With the NBA being a league where the best teams have top heavy rosters, adding Irving would give us three top-five players at their positions along with KAT and Jimmy Buckets. Adding in solid veterans like Taj Gibson, Jeff Teague, and Jamal Crawford only makes Wolves fans more excited.

Also, adding Uncle Drew into the fold would address one of our biggest weaknesses: 3-point shooting. Not only is Irving able to get his shot off from anywhere, he was a 40 percent shooter from downtown last season. The top two 3-point shooters for the Wolves last year were two guys who are no longer on the team: Zach Lavine and Brandon Rush. The highest percentage of a player still on the team was Gorgui Dieng at 37 percent, but he averaged less than one 3-ball a game attempted.

One problem with this proposed swap would be the roster imbalance. Minnesota would have three point guards and the only wings on the roster would be Butler and Crawford. Having Irving and Teague both start would be extremely dynamic on the offensive side of things, but would struggle badly on defense, where neither excels.

If you are a Minnesota fan, I can see your dilemma. Never has a player of Irving’s pedigree wanted to actually play for the Wolves. Plus a Big Three of with Towns and Butler sounds like something that might be able to give even the Warriors some trouble. On the other side of the coin, Wiggins is dripping with potential. If, and that’s a big if, he can live up to it, Minnesota could be the next NBA dynasty. I can see both sides of the argument, but I would go with the proven product and get this deal done!

Ethan: Irving for Wiggins can’t happen unless the Timberwolves re-sign him and then deal him to Cleveland. If we are talking what ifs, Wiggins for Irving makes sense for both sides.

With the acquisition, the Wolves can move Teague to a sixth man or two-guard, or they can bring Jamal Crawford off the bench and allow Irving to run the point. Cleveland would, in turn, wash its hands of the drama, get a serviceable two-guard to play alongside Lebron James and would have a personality that is already acclimated to playing alongside superstars, but can take his turn when needed. That is exactly the type of player Lebron needs, despite the fact the Cavaliers thought it would be better to trade Wiggins to acquire Kevin Love in the first place.

If I’m the general manager, however, I do not make the trade. As I’ve already stated on the record, Wiggins can do nearly everything Irving can. Also, he is younger and has yet to reach his full potential. Meanwhile, Irving has yet to play a full 82 game schedule, while Wiggins has played and started in all but one game in his three-year tenure in Minnesota.

To get a better feel for the situation, examining year three for both players offers us a bit of an inside track on how this could turn out. Wiggins averaged 2.8 more points per game, .4 more rebounds, shot .022 better from the field, played two more minutes per game and started in 11 more games. Irving shot just .002 better from three, had .4 more turnovers per contest and had half a steal more per game than Wiggins. The half a steal and obviously the assists total are greater, but the overall stats, minus a few categories, favor Wiggins. He has been with the team from the beginning and the franchise had enough confidence in him to trade away Kevin Love, why bail on him now?

Next: Minnesota Timberwolves roundtable: Grading Wolves' offseason

There is finally players around him and now, just because someone throws a wild card into the equation, you want to ship him off thinking your fortunes will turn out better? This would not only be the wrong move from a player to player standpoint, but it also verges on being the wrong move morally. Keep Wiggins, give him the contract he deserves and play with the team you have now. There is always next season to sign a player to address any weaknesses you find this season.